It sounds to me like you are saying I no choice in the matter of my salvation.If that is so, then if I am "chosen" then it doesn't matter what I do or say from here on out. If I saved I'm saved and there is nothing I can do about it. But what if I am not "chosen", then no matter how much I want to get to God I can't. So either way it doesn't matter what I do. This does not line up with Word of God.
In Romans 2:11 NKJV it says, 'For there is no partiality with God.'
Romans 10:11-13 NKJV says, 'For the Scripture says, 11 “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Then in verse 18 in the AMPV it says, 'But I ask, Have they not heard? Indeed they have; [for the Scripture says] Their voice [that of nature bearing God's message] has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the far bounds of the world.'
In Romans 11:32 AMPV it says, 'For God has consigned (penned up) all men to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].'
In Heb. 2:9 AMPV says, 'But we are able to see Jesus, Who was ranked lower than the angels for a little while, crowned with glory and honor because of His having suffered death, in order that by the grace (unmerited favor) of God [to us sinners] He might experience death for every individual person.'
And lastly, in Matthew 10:16-22 and Mark 10:17-22, it talks about the rich young ruler. If you will read it, you will see Jesus clearly and plainly call him to follow Him. But, the rich young ruler refused. If that is not freewill I don't know what is.
You seem to be intent on believing there is no freewill. I ask you, is there any scripture that I could present to you that would persuade you otherwise?
11 comments:
I don't understand, is there any way of knowing if you are saved or not?
So what do I do if I'm not "chosen"? I guess there is not much I can do. So if I don't do good then I am not "called"? If I do one thing that is not "good" then does that make me "uncalled"? I guess I'll just go to hell. I mean if it's like you said, and I don't have any say in the matter, then I guess I should just give up hope. I thought that maybe because He said anyone can come to Him I thought He might have meant me. But I guess not. So have fun in heaven, if you have been chosen, but I guess you can't really be sure either, can you? I mean, if what you say is true, then there is nothing you can or need to do about getting to heaven one way or the other, especially if it was already decided before we were born, just like your example of Jacob and Esau.
That leads to other good questions, why do you want to be a missionary if God is going to make the decision and He is going to tend to the people in China, whether you do anything about it or not? What is the point?
Does it matter one way or the other if I want to be saved or not, if I don't have any freewill? If my salvation does not depend on anything I do, then I can do what ever I want, that's what you are saying, right? If I am called and I don't have any freewill then does God force me to perservere? What if I don't want to perservere because it's not fun any more, does that make me "uncalled"?
'You can be sure b/c Peter says to make it sure.' If I don't have any freewill is God making me believe? Are you saying I have to do something to make myself sure? I thought you said there wasn't anything I could do?
'You are not to give up hope. You are to trust that Christ has saved you and then live each day believing that God will give you grace to do what is right and go and act on that belief, that future grace, ultimately looking to heaven.' But if I'm not "chosen" then it doesn't matter what I do, right? Didn't God already decide before I was even born if I was going to heaven or not? It doesn't matter what I believe, if I'm not "chosen" then I'm not "chosen" and there is nothing I can do about it, isn't that what you are saying?
As to China, why are you even going if God will take care of them if you go or not? 'He has appointed us as means. Means to spread the gospel.' Uh oh, are you saying we can and must do something, again? I thought you said we couldn't do anything and even if we did it wouldn't make any difference because God has already decided one way or the other before we were born, right?
Okay, now I'm getting the picture. Sense we have no freewill then God made some of us to waste our lives spreading the gospel to people who have no way of knowing if they will go to heaven, or if they are "chosen" or not, right?
Then God made a bunch of dispensable souls who have no purpose in life and are just going to hell because they've already been "predestined" and have no freewill to go or not to go there, isn't that what you said?
You sound really confused.
Haven't you contradicted yourself? You said, "You don't DO SOMETHING in the sense of a work. You examine yourself to see if you are really called." To examine oneself is doing something, I don't care who you ask. You can't examine yourself if you don't have freewill, can you?
"He gave them a choice but He kept people for Himself, they did not do it on their own." "Basically yes, God is making you believe." "No man can choose God of his own." How can God give us a choice and not give us a choice at the same time?
#2
You also said, "So if you're called then you will do good." So if you are not called you won't do good, does that make you perfect? 1 John 1:8 says, 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.'
#3
"He WILL keep a person persevering and if one does not in the long run persevere and endure then he is only shown that he is not a child of God and never was." I guess sense we have no freewill He also makes sin, right? James 1:13 says, 'Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He himself tempts no one.'
#4
"To sit on my rear would show little love for who He is." But you have no freewill so you can't choose to sit on you rear, you can't even choose to love God, isn't that the logical conclusion? "It does matter what one does if he is not chosen b/c he furthers his condemnation by his rejection of Christ," How can someone be "more" condemned? How can he "reject" Christ if he has no freewill to "reject" Christ with?
Sense you have no freewill I guess God is forcing you to go to China, isn't he? If you don't go does that make you "uncalled"?
#5
So, sense we have no freewill we can not choose to love God and we can not choose to reject God, correct?
We have no freewill to serve Him or not serve Him, correct?
There is no room for grace because there is no need for grace, correct?
Sense we have no freewill then Christ died for nothing and no one, correct?
Well, if that is true then how does 2 Peter 3:9 which says, 'The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance.' (emphasis added) fit in?
#6
What about John 3:16-17 which says, 16"For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn THE WORLD, but in order that THE WORLD might be saved through him." (emphasis added). How does the Gospel fit into your theology if we have no freewill to accept or reject the gospel? How is the Gospel "the gift of eternal life" if you can't choose to accept it or reject it? What is a gift? The dictionary says a gift is "something given", it does not say it is something forced. How can you claim to believe the truth when you are lying to me? Romans 3:4a says, Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.' Why are you believing what men say over what God says?
I can't say why you are responding to me. But I guess if you don't have any freewill God is making you do it, right?
Be prepared this one is a long one.
Your basic premises are, that because God is all powerful He makes people love Him. But He doesn't make everyone love Him, only some people. You are saying that Jesus died on the cross not to give everyone a chance of eternal salvation but to prove how glorious He is. (Sounds pretty egotistical to me.) Anyway, you can not say that He is a just God when He sends people to hell on purpose when (according to you) He could have saved them. That is not grace that is cruelty. You are saying that because He is all powerful He doesn't give us a choice to accept Him or reject him. And that all of this is supposed to shows how glorious God is and it really doesn't have much to do with love. No, this does not make Him a loving heavenly father it makes Him a dictator. You are saying God knows what is going to happen therefor He causes it to happen. What if I knew that every evening at nine o'clock you went to bed. Does that mean I make you go to bed at nine o'clock, just because I know what you are going to do it before you do it?
So it doesn't matter what scripture I give you or how well I explain your scriptures, this is always the conclusion you are going to come to. We can never agree because we have already decide that no matter what evidence that other brings it is not going to change our minds. I apologize for calling you a liar. It didn't help anything. I could go through each one of those scriptures and explain how each on of them lines up perfectly with why I believe God gave us freewill. But I'm not going to, because no matter what I say you won't accept it. No matter what I say you can't accept it because you have already made the decision not to. After having said that would you still like me to explain your scripture references?
My basic premise is, like you said in not so many words, that God gave us all a choice. A choice to accept Him or reject Him. You said earlier that we can not get to God on our own. I totally agree. That is why Jesus came to make a way for us to get to God. Question #1 Child/ shelf. You are the child, God's righteousness is the shelf. The only way to get to God is through Jesus Christ. But you say that only a few people can be saved. Why would God "call" you and not Joe Blow down the street? What makes you so special? I call that unjust. You also asked how can you believe? Please reread Romans 1:16-28 I'm sure you are familiar with it. Please consider verses 19 and 21; '19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.' '21For although they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.' These verse say that they knew the truth because God showed it to them. But they choose not to follow God. They choose to do what they wanted to do. No matter how loud God cried out to them they could no longer hear Him because they choose not to hear Him.
Grace comes in where though when we were yet sinners Christ died for us. ALL of us, because we were all sinners. If any of us were perfect we would not need Christ. Christ can influence us yes, but, He can not force (make, impose, ram down our throats,) us to accept Him as our Lord and personal savior.
I would also like to make a distinction between the Old Testament and the New Testament. In the OT God judged the people and they had to make sacrifices to Him. The sacrifices only covered their sin it did not obliterate it. In the NT when Jesus died on the cross, He became the ultimate sacrifice. He took ours sins and completely destroyed them and their power over us. He gave us the decision to accept His forgiveness or refuse it. Of course, to you and I it seems completely ludicrous for any of them not to want it. Perhaps that is why some man come up with the idea that because they choose not to accept it they just must not have been "called' to start with. The Bible says God "calls" all men unto Him. But He does not make us come. It's been that way since Adam and Eve. They knew not to eat the forbidden fruit but choose to disobey God and do what they wanted to do. According to you God could have stopped them from eating the fruit. Why didn't He? It would have saved a whole lot of blood, sweat, and tears. I would suggest to you it was because God wanted to know what they would choose. You and I can't image how much it hurt God when He was watching it all happen. If some of us were already saved and some of us are already going to hell then why did Jesus have to suffer tremendous pain? What was it all for?
I have read over what you have written and I still don't see how you can come to that conclusion. The best book to demonstrate this to you is The Experiment by Bill Myers. It is only 141 pages long, but it explains it so well. I'm almost tempted to buy if for you myself. But if you wouldn't read it then there really is no point. I think that sufficiently answers your questions. But I will explain it again if you want me to.
I could not agree more with you about being how thankful I am for this conversation with you. You are most definitely right when you say God is awesome. Because He truly is.
Take your time, I won't have as much of it now that I've started some school classes. Not to fear though, I am working on the explanations you requested.
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