In previous discussions Barak, you keep bring up Romans 9 as a foundation for your beliefs and you encouraged me to study it as well. I have finally found the time to look at it in depth. This is what I found, which might I add is consistent with the rest of the Bible and supports what I have been trying to explain to you.
You specifically mentioned verses 15-23, so those are the ones I will focus on.
Romans 9:15
Paul is giving the example of Isaac, Jacob and Esau. God knew before they were born who would trust Him. Therefore, God chose Jacob to receive the blessing, because God knew Jacob would serve Him and Esau would not. However, contrary to your belief, He did not make their decisions for them. He just foresaw what they would do. God has always said that He will have mercy and compassion on those who choose to trust and obey Him. Those are the “elect”.
Verse 16
Isaac WILLED that Esau should get the blessing and Esau RAN to fulfill Isaac’s request of a savory meal before Isaac was going to bless Esau. But, God showed MERCY on Jacob by blessing him instead of Esau, because God knew Jacob’s heart. God knew that Jacob would choose to obey and trust Him. So God fulfilled His plan and blessed Jacob instead of Esau and used Rebekah’s and Jacob’s free-willed choices to accomplish it.
Verse 17
Again it says God has mercy on those who choose to trust and obey Him. For more on this you can check out Acts 10:34-35, Proverbs 28:13, and 1 John 1:9. God is no respecter of persons, because His acceptance is based on how we show God respect and follow His commandments. If you confess your sins and forsake them, He is faithful and just to forgive all of your sins and show mercy to you.
Verse 18
YET again those who choose to obey and believe God, on those He will have mercy.
Verse 19
Those who withstand God’s will are those who choose to sin and disobey God. He gives the example of Pharaoh, who chose to refuse to repent and turn to God. The more chances God gave Pharaoh the more Pharaoh hardened his heart against the LORD. In Proverbs 28:14 it says, “he who harden his own heart will fall into calamity.”
Verses 20-21
I believe it spells it out in 2 Timothy 2:20-21 and Jeremiah 18:1-10. The message is consistent, God will save them if they will repent and turn back to Him.
Verses 22-23
No matter how much God wants the wicked to repent He will not force them to do it. Instead, after much longsuffering (Rom. 1: 18-20) and showing and clearly making known to them Himself, till they were without excuse He then gave up on them. It says that three times in that one chapter (verses 24,26,28). He desperately wants us to receive His redemption, but He never, ever, ever, forces us to accept it. Like I said before, He can and He does influence people but He does not make them come to Him.
2 Thessalonians 2:14 says, that the Gospel calls us. The Gospel is God’s free gift to us and it is given to everyone. He promises us that if we choose to accept His call/invitation and choose to love Him by obeying His commandments (John 14:21) that He will have mercy on us and give us grace through Jesus Christ. God choose those who repent to be His elect, because of their obedience.
You asked how could we believe, well, by faith. God extended to everyone a measure of faith and more faith comes to us by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:14-17). The preacher brings the Word. God calls the preacher, but the preacher has freewill to accept or reject that call. God does not force the preacher to preach. You cannot give me a scripture that says that he does not have freewill.
You also mentioned Proverbs 16: 4-5 please look at Proverbs 28:13. It says, the evil man will not go unpunished BUT the one who chooses to repent will have mercy.
I believe I have “reconciled” our scriptures. Like I said before, if you cannot accept this you will not accept anything I or anyone else could give you. This is why; you do not want to accept it and because of your freewill you choose not to accept it. I cannot change your mind, only you can do that.
Love in Christ,
DL
10 comments:
This is probably one the last things I am going to say about this because like I said twice before there is nothing I can give that you will accept. I realize you have been taught this belief for over 18 years. I would be really surprised if you changed your mind just because of what I wrote.
You said that I was missing out on something. The only thing I can think of is not having the responsibility for my own salvation, in the sense that it is my choice of my own freewill. By saying that I don't have choice you are saying that God forces me to love Him. In that case you are also saying that God causes people to sin, because we don't have any freewill not to sin.
No matter how well I answered your scriptures you will not accept it. In chess this is called a stale mate. You cannot agree with me without endangering your position and visa versa. It's okay because God gives us a choice to either believe Him or believe someone else. You say you are right, I would say you are wrong, but you want to believe what you want to believe, and not even God Himself could make you believe otherwise.
I would also have to say that you are the one who seems to be missing out. This is why; you are so bound up in the belief that there isn't anything you can do of your own freewill. You say that because God is sovereign He makes us do things. If He was just going to save some and not others then why did Jesus die on the cross? You said He died just to glorify Himself. I think it would be stupid for someone to die just to show everyone else how powerful He is. However, you are entitled to your own opinion, but THAT IS ALL IT IS, your opinion.
You should not become a missionary. It would be disobeying God's will. If His will is to send some people to hell just for the sake of sending them to hell then you shouldn't go around telling people they can be saved. God (according to you) wants those people to go to hell and you shouldn't try and change their minds. Of course you will probably say that only the people who are "called" would come anyway. I am not saying God could not make people love Him, I'm saying that He doesn't, because that would make Him a brute not a loving heavenly father (which He says He is).
And another thing, you said earlier, "He does not actively cause people to sin." But you also said that because God harden Pharaoh’s heart therefore God made Pharaoh to sin. These are contradictions in case you haven't noticed. Of course you will say, I don't see any contradictions, so it really doesn't matter one smidgen what you said before.
In conclusion, I told you so. I told you that it wouldn’t matter if I explained your scriptures you would not and could not accept it. However, I am willing if you are willing to agree to disagree.
You have not angered me so don't worry about it. I just know that you are not open to anything I might say, so there isn't much reason to keep going back and forth if nothing I can say will convince you. Yes, you did give me scripture, but no, you did not make a sound case for your argument. You go in circles a lot and your premises are, from what you’ve said, contradictory. They are not consistent through out the Bible and they will not hold up in the long run. You are entitled to your opinion though, so I am not the one to force you to change. No one, not even God Himself, can change your mind for you. You choose to believe what you believe of your own freewill and that is the only way you can change your beliefs.
Ummm...okay so.. what do you mean by...well...ummm..huh...but what about...umm...I see but...umm...
well...okay but...umm...
:D
Did you really think that by typing out that long thing that you would somehow convict me of my "errors"? Honestly now, why are do you think it makes any difference what you say to me? I can't even change my own mind how do you think you are going to do that? Why are you even trying? It doesn't make any sense, if I am going to hell and nothing I can do will change that then heck I might as well do as I please...
I would just like to say that I am not any more headstrong than you or Barak or anyone else on God's green earth, and if you don't think that you have another thing coming to you.
I don't understand why you are rebuking me, if I am not called then aren't you going against God's will? It doesn't make a bit of difference what you or I believe because ultimately we don't have a choice. So why should we continue? Your words are saying one thing but your actions are saying another. So I'm not sure what your point is...
One more thing, sense we have already agreed that we don't agree why should we continue to talk about it. I would like to introduce you to a passage that would probably apply to this situation, 2 Timothy 2:23-26. I may have already disobeyed this, however, I am not perfect and I am still learning. Through this descussion it has taught me a lot about what I believe and why I believe it. Thank you very much for helping me come to a better understanding of God.
I pray that we can all come to a better understanding of the Truth.
Barak, Moses, and anyone else that cares to read...
From what I gather, the question presented or debated is whether or not we, as human beings have free will and the ability to make a choice based on our own intentions and desires.
Barak, Moses, if you two are correct in your thinking that we have no free will, then those of us that are not 'called/chosen' should eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we may all die and go to hell.
If you two are correct and I have no choice, then I am relieved of ALL personal liability for my actions and thoughts for they are not my own. The people of the world committing heinous crimes are not criminals; at best they are only God's puppets to punish the rest of us. (For by your doctrine, we have no choice in what we do.)
Rape, murder, incest, theft, these are not human inventions according to you. They are for the glory of God so that he can heal the broken hearted... right? I don't believe it. I never will.
I do not believe as you two do so according to your doctrine I'm lost, not chosen, hidden from the light, etc. AND I don't have free will so it isn't my decision what I believe anyway.
Your gobbledygook is self-defeating. You try to change my mind when by your own admission it isn't up to me.
Your words are filled with uncertainty and your fear of being wrong has closed your minds to consider that your arguments don't make sense.
Posted from Veritas site:
Moses said...
I am not God; I have no clue about the state of your salvation; so I'm not accusing you of anything... I would pray that you would seek out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that works in you, to will and to do His pleasure.
God is big. Beyond anything you can imagine. That's really the point; you two have crafted a God that is not the God of the Bible. Pretty much in your own image of how he "should be." A God which does not control the world... Apparently He had no control over Katrina. The God you follow isn't even bigger than a hurricane. Does that not disconcert you? He's not bigger than a rapist or even a liar? Is that the God of the Bible? No. The God of the Bible creates vessels for Obedience and for Disobedience in order to GLORIFY HIMSELF. That's the only purpose. Sin exists in order for God to glorify Himself in His mercy towards sinners. Stand with Job and answer your God. Where were you when the foundations of the earth were made? Where were you? Who are you to question God? Your words are blasphemous. Romans 9:14 "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? (referring to God chosing Jacob over Esau before either had done anything either good or bad) By no means! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whoom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human WILL or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... So then HE has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."
Now to address the so called "logical flaw" in our argument. That there's no point in arguing with you... you're right. In one sense it was all planned out before hand; however, my prayer is that it was all planned out before hand for us to be ministers of grace to the both of you. How can they believe if they do not hear, and how can they hear without a preacher? God uses His vessels to bring about His purposes for His own glory. Everything that you hold about salvation being based on a belief/faith in Christ alone (I hope) is still true! The only difference is that we are humble enough to acknowledge God and realize that we had nothing to do with it! That is what Scripture says! Do you chose to throw out John 1? Lamentations 3? I Peter? Titus? Romans 9-11? You can misinterprate them and insert your own thoughts into them if you want... but if you take the Word at what it says; God is sovereign; sin exists to Glorify Him in His Justice and Mercy; the same is true of calamity, perhaps adding in His Power; we exist to be called from the north and south as His children to Glorify God. That is what we are. Little God glorifiers; image bearers. May the Lord soften your unbelieving heart, submit it to the word, and relinquish your death grip on a man exalting sense of "justice."
9/15/2005 10:49 PM
[quote wildcard356/ Rape, murder, incest, theft, these are not human inventions according to you. They are for the glory of God so that he can heal the broken hearted... right? I don't believe it. I never will./ end quote]
[quote moses/ He's not bigger than a rapist or even a liar? Is that the God of the Bible? No. The God of the Bible creates vessels for Obedience and for Disobedience in order to GLORIFY HIMSELF. That's the only purpose. Sin exists in order for God to glorify Himself in His mercy towards sinners. /end quote]
So you're saying he made the rapists, liars, murderers, and thefts do those things for his glory?
Posted from Veritas site:
Moses said...
Check out Romans 9:19-23 if you still think that you have no liability when God is completely sovereign.
And also, do not mistake a loving, gentle, rebuke for uncertainty. On the Bible I take my stand, so help my Almighty God.
Calvin was a brilliant godly man. We are not Calvinists however; we are Christians. We stand on the word of God alone, not on the word of any man. Call us what you will, that is who we are by the grace and call of God.
9/15/2005 11:12 PM
Posted on Veratis site:
(the part they answered)
DaylilyLady134 said...
That is a good question, how can we know anything is true? God said that His will is that none should perish, but He is sending people to hell and not even giving them a choice. He said He died so that anyone who believed could be saved, but obviously that is not true because He only lets some people believe and not other people. He says He is a just God but that can't be true because He is sending people to hell before they even do anything wrong. So, yeah, I see what you mean it is rather difficult to believe the Bible is true.
In response:
Moses said...
You are just oozing the love of Christ my sister. I realize that you disaggree with us; all of us realize that at this point I think. And so instead of rebuking you for YOUR HERETICAL HANDELING OF GOD'S WORD I will simply ask that you consider that we are to rebuke one another out of love; for the benefit OF THE HEARERS not for the bolstering of the pride of the one rebuking. Rebukes are to be gentle and founded on a loving concern stemming from God's own loving mercy to us. I would suggest you study Titus and I Peter 3 (esp. 14-16). Please bear that in mind before you comment again.
So he admits it. He said himself it was heresy. Of course, I think he called me a heretic as well, but that is beside the point.
Okay, the predestinationers beliefs in a nut shell...
1. We as humans are so bad that we cannot come to Christ.
2. We do not have the freewill to even choose to come to Christ.
3. We are all predestined before we were born for eternity, some to go to hell some to go to heaven, but it does not depend at all on anything we can do.
4. God wants people to go to hell for His glory and does not give them a choice.
You are not willing to change your mind. According to you, you can't change your mind; this only implies that you do not hold any responsibility for your salvation. If you say you have any responsibility for your salvation then you will be taking it out of God's hands, which according to you is impossible.
I have run around in circles with you long enough. So much so that anyone who has the slightest bit of common sense will see who is right and who is horribly wrong. You can believe what you believe and God will not force you to change. You can only change if you want to change.
Please do not give me any more nonsense about how God wants people to go to hell. Don't give me any more circler arguments or contradictory statements.
I hope you don't go around telling people you have the "good news" when you do not have "good news". It is not "good news" for all those people who cannot be saved; neither is it "good news" for those people who are forced to love God.
Do not tell me that I am an arrogant heretic for not believing what you believe. You are not the Holy Spirit and it is not your job to condemn and convict people. Knowing that you are a Christian is absolutely uncertain according to your beliefs.
I guess that is all I can say;
Except that I choose to love you all in Christ love and I thank you once again for an amazing discussion about our loving, heavenly Father.
~DaylilyLady
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